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Showing my behind

Alan F

Alan F

Moderator
Senior Member
I’ve had newer cars with electronic engine controls. I have a question maybe someone has insight upon. My CTSV wagon would just die out when it went to wheelspin. Very unsophisticated. I’ve driven it over my head before and the Stabilitrack just hunkers the car down. Truly amazing.

Let’s assume you have an old car with engine management controls like drive by wire, electronic ignition, electronic distributor advance, electronic transmission, electronic braking aids; are electronic engine controls capable of adjusting performance parameters on the fly to balance wheel spin versus acceleration? You’ll notice that I didn’t say traction control because it just dumps performance.

What would it take to put something like that on our cars? Wouldn’t it be cool to have something you could just matt-it and get the best ET every time?
 
Never really thought about it, but are you saying putting the newer controls in an older car, and if so, trimming some of the "features" allowing us to not be limited by what the automakers consider "smart controls"?

I could see it being a big benefit if we could, much like having anti-lock braking.
 
If I understand what you're saying, there are companies that sell electronic traction control and ABS for Classic cars.

I prefer old school traction control by trying to make a car handle for street by a fully adjustable suspension, tire, and foot/pedal control.

My issues with the new style of traction control in any car are:
1. On, it hinders HP/TQ Traction to the tires. Not by just limiting but also sometimes limiting to much.
2. Off, The cars just blow the tires off.
3. On, People forget how to drive their cars on different street surfaces. Great for general driving, but not for racing.

I win more street races against both if I can pedal my car correctly. Most of the time when they run it off, they don't normally do so and cant control their cars tire spin. On and they keep losing power. Either way they lose.

All the above is why most new car owners would rather 'roll race' from a 40-60. They don't know how to drive. Fortunately for them, my car can also roll on the HWY.
 
kmakar said:
Never really thought about it, but are you saying putting the newer controls in an older car, and if so, trimming some of the "features" allowing us to not be limited by what the automakers consider "smart controls"?

I could see it being a big benefit if we could, much like having anti-lock braking.
Click to expand...
Generally, yes. I have now 3 old corvairs. One for parts, one for a patina-rod and one for restoration. The patina rod, which we are beginning work upon, I want to put antilock and electronic engine management controls with fuel injection and electronic distributor. It would seem like all you need is something to detect the differential in wheel speed to engine speed and a willing computer to make a cool setup.

I was watching street outlaws and Sean Ellington (Murder Nova) made a slight reference to checking his traction control. That got me thinking.
 
Racetronics has a GPS mounted blackbox that monitors engine speed and car speed. I haven't researched it though.
 
cage2592 said:
My issues with the new style of traction control in any car are:
1. On, it hinders HP/TQ Traction to the tires. Not by just limiting but also sometimes limiting to much.
2. Off, The cars just blow the tires off.
3. On, People forget how to drive their cars on different street surfaces. Great for general driving, but not for racing.
Click to expand...
I agree on all counts. It’s not that I want to street race the corvair but I like dabbling with technology.
 
I'd suppose something like Dakota Digital could provide rpm's of wheel and or driveshaft and a trans controller, but getting a management system to place nice with everything would be tough.
 
The trick would be measuring and balancing relative force. I know Formula One had traction control for a period before they outlawed it. They always referred to engine mapping code and how hard it would be to detect. In my mind it’s doable. I just don’t know what it takes hardware wise and if anyone is doing it.

Managing acceleration on a Corvair would be infinitely easier processing speed than on a 1-2,000 HP ‘street’ car’.
 
Checo said:
The trick would be measuring and balancing relative force. I know Formula One had traction control for a period before they outlawed it. They always referred to engine mapping code and how hard it would be to detect. In my mind it’s doable. I just don’t know what it takes hardware wise and if anyone is doing it.

Managing acceleration on a Corvair would be infinitely easier processing speed than on a 1-2,000 HP ‘street’ car’.
Click to expand...

Maybe contacting that guy John Reynolds who's doing the "v8 into a corvair the hard way" on youtube may have some insight.....
 
I’ve been following that build. Before we made a deal on our last Corvair, I was thinking about doing that LS4 swap on one of the corvairs, but in the front. The work John does just blows me away. It helps that he has all the tools.

I was a click of the mouse from buying a 2008 SS Impala as a future donor about two months ago.

We made a deal yesterday on a 1966 Corsa, which is the HP version. It’s been in a field near Dallas since 1974 and is complete. That’s our future resto-candidate.
 
Please do a build thread! That would be fun to watch. I really like updated hot-rodded Corvair's. I've seen two LS versions with Vette running gear and they were amazing to see.
 
I’m garnering ideas for a high HP build for the ‘65 Monza patina-rod. It’s all in the heads, intake and exhaust. Evidently they will readily make 250 hp in a 2400# car. Handling on the second gen cars is far superior to the first gens which were the subject of Nader’s ire.

First I’m going to get the car running, driveable, stable and safe. Once I get there, I’ve got an extra engine that I can build. I’ll do that, then work on electronic upgrades once the platform is done.
 
There's a guy I've raced against that has a high-end traction control setup in his very expensive (half-million $ build) camaro. It works great, but the car sounds awful when he just stands on it and lets the computer do the work.

I'm proud to say I finished 1 spot behind him by .045 sec (2 day event with best run for each day added together) at KOTM in my heavier car, with smaller tires, and no driver aids. :) His TC system cost about half what I have in my whole car.
 
Thanks. Any idea about the hardware required. I’m somewhat of a ‘farmer’ when I’m exploring.
 
I'm sure there are some available. To be a smooth operation it would require access to the ECU though.
My complaint about traction control is that it is generally too slow for track days, not sure about quarter mile. I was driving a friend's E63 AMG on the track and he wanted me to keep the traction. Control on as he didn't want his 120k car wrecked.
What I found was that my sense of the vehicle slipping was faster than the control system. This resulted in me letting off the throttle somewhat and then half a second later the control came in slowing the car even more. On a track with others that are in full acceleration coming out of a corner this is not a good thing.
 
If you are going to use an old car just put a FI tech on it and let'er rip as it will do all the tuning for you. Us really old codgers remember when you could put a Predator carb on a car go to the track and run a repeatable run after run with that thing on the engine, well mine sure did. Funny think is, I have 3 of them old box Predators in the basement, might need to be doing some testing this year.
 
The aftermarket TC systems are quite expensive and way more advanced than the OEM systems that are designed just to keep stupid people from hurting themselves.

I have no experience with them, though. Drag race setups might be a little cheaper since they don't need to monitor yaw, steering input, lateral loads, etc... I don't know how they work though, since you can't just use wheel speed sensors oto determine slip percentage if the front wheels are in the air.
 
Derek, do you see any older cars running something like a newer Vette impendent rear with the traction control at your events? I think that would make and awesome combo of a Corvair with a powerplant, rear and computer from a vette.
 
There are some, but I don't know how many of them keep the TC systems operational.

I am parting out an '06 Z06 for my next build (using whole chassis) and will be keeping the factory systems in place. It will basically be a C6Z re-skinned as something else. Currently leaning towards square-body Blazer. Wheelbase is really close, and classing will be favorable as a "truck" in some series, and old enough to be "vintage" in others. It will be street-legal racecar whereas my Chevelle is more of a race-capable streetcar.

It's TC system has a "competition mode" which works quite well to keep it pointed the right direction without disrupting power-on with corner exit. It's a bit difficult for me to adjust my driving to the IRS though. They're way more snappy than a live axle, and will take some getting used to.
 
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