New Shop

[kmakar]

I just found out I'm getting reimbursed almost the full amount I've paid out for Lisa's brain surgery, so my new shop build is back on.

I've changed the size and have increased it to 30' x 60' with 1 roll up door that is 10' x 12' and one walk through door. No windows. The roll up and walk through doors will be shifted all the way to the left.

It's 1,800 sq ft, and I'll be insulating it.

Here is a pic of the building (it's # 27 in the photos), but this one says 30' x 55' but I'll be getting the 30' x 60'.

What size AC will I need Rick? Got some ideas on how it'd be installed?

 

[Nashville Cat]

I just found out I'm getting reimbursed almost the full amount I've paid out for Lisa's brain surgery, so my new shop build is back on.

I've changed the size and have increased it to 30' x 60' with 1 roll up door that is 10' x 12' and one walk through door. No windows. The roll up and walk through doors will be shifted all the way to the left.

It's 1,800 sq ft, and I'll be insulating it.

Here is a pic of the building (it's # 27 in the photos), but this one says 30' x 55' but I'll be getting the 30' x 60'.

What size AC will I need Rick? Got some ideas on how it'd be installed?

Mr Cool sells a DIY 36k mini-split. I installed an 18k in my basement.

MRCOOL DIY 36,000 BTU Ductless Mini Split AC and Heat Pump with Wireless-Enabled Smart Controller - DIY-36-HP-230B25

The MRCOOL DIY series heat pump is the only ductless mini-split system on the market explicitly designed for amateur installation. You do not need any special tools or training to install this high efficiency heat pump.

hvacdirect.com

 

[kmakar]

Mr Cool sells a DIY 36k mini-split. I installed an 18k in my basement.

MRCOOL DIY 36,000 BTU Ductless Mini Split AC and Heat Pump with Wireless-Enabled Smart Controller - DIY-36-HP-230B25

The MRCOOL DIY series heat pump is the only ductless mini-split system on the market explicitly designed for amateur installation. You do not need any special tools or training to install this high efficiency heat pump.

hvacdirect.com

Not so sure 3 ton unit would be enough for that space. I have a 2 ton mini split in my garage and it does all it can to keep it cool when you park a hot car, or are working on a running engine.

I'm thinking it'll have to be a conventional split system with ducting going down the length with diffusers every 10' or so to cool it off quickly (since I won't leave it running 24/7).

 

[cheveslakr]

Mini splits are great for office spaces and areas where you're well insulated. In your shop, I'm guessing you'll be underinsulated so distributing the heat/cooling towards infiltrated areas like the doors is a must. I've got a 72k btu 94% eff. system in a 1000 sq ft shop with R7 walls and R19 roof. It's oversized but it was a free unit. I'd guess it's 30% oversized.

 

[Jasons69Chevelle]

Really someone would have to do a manual j load calculation. But 1 ton per 400 sqft would get you close. 1800sq feet would be a 4 ton, however you have a taller roof so I’d think a 5 ton would be plenty big. Are you getting closed cell spray foam? I’d look into Fabric ductwork also.

 

[kmakar]

Really someone would have to do a manual j load calculation. But 1 ton per 400 sqft would get you close. 1800sq feet would be a 4 ton, however you have a taller roof so I’d think a 5 ton would be plenty big. Are you getting closed cell spray foam?

I had thought about it, but I'm concerned about any condensation trapped and the metal rotting from the inside out. I was thinking I would use 2" rigid foam with a foil back (foil facing the metal to reflect the heat) leaving a space (about 1/2") between the insulation and the metal.

The building will have 12' high walls (13' to under the truss), and given the area and heat generated from working, I thought a 5 ton would be just fine. I won't be leaving the AC (or heat) on 24/7, so I want it to cool or heat the building pretty quickly.

 

[Jasons69Chevelle]

Are you planning on a residential package unit or a split system? Ridge foam with the backing and air gap will work good.

I had mine foamed in with close cell 2 inches.(about r12-r14) Closed cell forms it’s own vapor barrier, and adds to the structural strength. Some can have a bad reaction to the out gassing.( it’ll smell for about 2 weeks)
At the roll up door I used a refrigeration truck insulated blankets, kinda like a curtain.
My shop is smaller the the one you’re building. I would have had to remove a tree and the concrete and rv port was already installed when I bought the house. I ended up using a 18,000 btu mini split 1.5 tons.(22 seer)
When it’s hot here in Texas my shop will get down to 72. It heats well for 45-55 degree winter we get. It’s only 14x40x14 with 560sqft I did put a storage loft above my work area. So that kinda reduced the area my mini split head needed to cool. This summer I ran that system 24/7 and my bill increased about $10 a month. I installed the mini myself but I’m a mechanical contractor. I ended up using a pioneer mini split( I installed one in our game room also) I’ve only had to replace the blower motor in the shops unit about a month after installed it 2 years ago.

If the shop was larger and I had natural gas available I would have used a package unit or a split system.
No natural gas available I would have went a multiple head mini split mainly for the seer rating.

 

[kmakar]

Are you planning on a residential package unit or a split system? Ridge foam with the backing and air gap will work good.

I had mine foamed in with close cell 2 inches.(about r12-r14) Closed cell forms it’s own vapor barrier, and adds to the structural strength. Some can have a bad reaction to the out gassing.( it’ll smell for about 2 weeks)
At the roll up door I used a refrigeration truck insulated blankets, kinda like a curtain.
My shop is smaller the the one you’re building. I would have had to remove a tree and the concrete and rv port was already installed when I bought the house. I ended up using a 18,000 btu mini split 1.5 tons.(22 seer)
When it’s hot here in Texas my shop will get down to 72. It heats well for 45-55 degree winter we get. It’s only 14x40x14 with 560sqft I did put a storage loft above my work area. So that kinda reduced the area my mini split head needed to cool. This summer I ran that system 24/7 and my bill increased about $10 a month. I installed the mini myself but I’m a mechanical contractor. I ended up using a pioneer mini split( I installed one in our game room also) I’ve only had to replace the blower motor in the shops unit about a month after installed it 2 years ago.

If the shop was larger and I had natural gas available I would have used a package unit or a split system.
No natural gas available I would have went a multiple head mini split mainly for the seer rating.

I had planned on a split system, but you bring up a very valid point of a multi mini split system. That might work well also for air distribution. I installed (myself) a 2 ton pioneer mini split in my current garage, and it's worked well. It's been very econimical, but even better is it's a soft start and wouldn't tax my offgrid solar inverter for startup.

I do know about the off gassing as we had our house sprayed with open cell and it stunk for weeks (it was during the house being built so we weren't living in it yet).

 

[Shovelrick]

Multi head mini splits are great but the environment they're installed in can be a problem because they have a very thin filter, if you're going to do any paint and body work they'll pick up the dust even if turned off while doing the work Unless you have an exhaust system (Filtered?) to remove the dust, my engine builders home shop is 30' wide X 50' long X 16' side wall makes 18,000 cu. ft for 12' up, he had the pitched roof and about 2' down the sidewalls closed cell foam sprayed and doing the same 2" styrofoam walls, he'll be doing machine work in there along with a couple cleaning machines 1 uses a caustic chem that is probably going to be harsh on the evap coil so that adds another reason I'm recommending a 3.5 ton condensor on a 4 ton air handler, remove humidity for Heads & Block storage since he doesnt want any rust problems and isnt worried about lower than 78° air, I'm sure it'll get much cooler, so long story long LOL Kevin all the things your planning to use the building come into play when deciding type & size of equipment, JM 2 cents

 

[PHX396]

Since this is your forever shop I would def do spray foam. Experienced installers know how to not get condensation trapped. Quality of product they use also plays a factor so just make sure company installing is experienced. I agree with Rick though a lot for AC depends on what your using the space for. I know for mine when I build it I am installing a floor drain to wash cars inside in summer and a deionized water system.

 

[kmakar]

Since this is your forever shop I would def do spray foam. Experienced installers know how to not get condensation trapped. Quality of product they use also plays a factor so just make sure company installing is experienced. I agree with Rick though a lot for AC depends on what your using the space for. I know for mine when I build it I am installing a floor drain to wash cars inside in summer and a deionized water system.

I won't call it my "forever" shop for the simple reason that I'm living in my 3rd last retirement place. Life changes so I adapt.

In regards to the spray foam, my concerns are no matter how good the installers are, there is no possible way they can get the foam in between where the panels are screwed to the support members leaving an enclosed area where water can condensate effectively rotting the panels pretty much at the points of attachment from the inside out. This applies to either open or closed cell foam. Open cell will breathe, but I fear it will still collect too much moisture that won't be able to be ventilated enough to let the moisture evaporate.

The AC will be installed for comfort only. I won't run it 24/7 for the simple fact it'll cost a fortune (even running on solar) for such a large space. I believe I've decided to do a split system as that will provide the best air flow and filtering. I plan on having a spray booth because I prefer having overspray and the dust contained in a smaller area that's easier to maintain.

 

[kmakar]

Well, here is the quote / invoice for the new shop. I'm going with these guys, and they gave me the best deal.

 

[Shovelrick]

Kevin can you ask them if they have a way to do a Manual J load calc using the R factor that you're going to insulate the bldg and use of the bldg? Another opinion or load calc wouldn't hurt as long as they'll do it for free, well free meaning you are buying from them

 

[kmakar]

Kevin can you ask them if they have a way to do a Manual J load calc using the R factor that you're going to insulate the bldg and use of the bldg? Another opinion or load calc wouldn't hurt as long as they'll do it for free

I can ask. The guy is johnny on the spot and answers the phone every time I call.

I hired another guy to do the land clearing on Sunday. He's going to clear and level the land for $3,500.

 

[cage2592]

Did I miss where the concrete is and price?

 

[kmakar]

Did I miss where the concrete is and price?

Nope, you didn't miss it. I'm having that done myself (by another contractor) to my specs. 12" x 12" footer with 2 #5 rebar around perimeter, and a staggered monolithic pour 5" slab.

I'm acting as the General Contractor (which I used to actually be about 25 years ago). That price is $11,000.

 

[cage2592]

Not bad at $6 sqft. ! I just paid $10 sqft. finished here.

 

[kmakar]

Not bad at $6 sqft. ! I just paid $10 sqft. finished here.

Actually I thought the price was rather average, but getting someone dependable is a different story....... luckily my guy is....

 

[Shovelrick]

Hey Kevin I started on the engine builders home 30'X 50' shop today, I'll post how it works out, btw its a 3 ton ac condensor on a 3.5 ton air handler with a 12' long supply trunk line around 15' high in the garage

 

[Shovelrick]

Getting there